That depends on what youre running the top rope through. Any system is only as good as the weakest link in the chain, and if you run the top rope through a poorly constructed top anchor, it most surely is NOT mega safe.
"The truth is there's lots of ways to learn the art of rock climbing. This is one generic, but sure-fire, way to do so."
I think this statement should be included in your introduction. It seems to me that you are describing how you learned to climb or maybe things you wish you had done. But folks approach learning to climb in many different ways: ie, via gyms, from guides, from friends, and the approach you are describing is not the only one.
Writing an article about all the ways to start climbing would leave people where they started... which is wondering where to start, so I chose to be more specific. I learned and refined this plan guiding. There's lot's of other ways though, nothing in the article ever says otherwise :)
Scotty, I didn't disagree with you. Your article specifically mentioned there are lots of other ways to learn. I just think it would be more effective if you address that in the beginning, stating this is the way you learned or the the best way to go about it, based on your experience.
Also, I think you should include some of your learning or guiding experiences.
you say "GET NEW STUFF!!!" for Belay Device & Locking Carabiner
but not for a Harness,to quote Nigel Lewis "Any system is only as good as the weakest link in the chain"
is an article on surviving your early years. I see the most probably time to have injuries or getting killed, is when you are just starting out (first couple years) because of what you don't know, and later on when you really push yourself- accepting some known risks. It would be nice if someone who is a certified climbing guide (I was going to become one but passed on it for reasons) or someone who is very experienced with absolute horrorshows (hint, hint, The Chief, Brutus of Wyde.....)
Also second what was said above, getting a new harness is more important than a new bealy device, due to weakening of soft goods with battery acid, chemical, UV exposure or just wear or age.
Also top roping you can EASILY get killed, especially a beginner. I've seen someone in another party die just a few feet away when their TR anchor failed (knot issue) and also someone get severely hurt when the anchor (a 1000lb boulder) moved. The knot issue is also what killed a woman Shelley who owned a climbing gym in PHX last year. She made a mistake when she tied two sets of webbing together and when she leaned back , she fell 100ft to her death at Paradise Forks.
Also its best that someone teach a beginner how to belay. You can mess this up pretty bad (had a friend in ICU for monthes since they were dropped by someone who messed up).
This is a great article, and there are some great and highly important points in the comments. I just started gym climbing and fell in love with it. So far I have been trying to find books and figure out what I need and what to look for in gear and this article goes over the basics. The article also points out some very important things,” being honest" with yourself, instructors, and fellow climbers can stop a major problem or mistake from occurring. Another SP'er recommended a book to me, "Accidents in North American Mountaineering", I think of the books I own and this one is very important, learning from others mistakes and not making them yourself and learning the hard way, and it's also good so people getting into the sport understand what they're getting into.
Thanks Scotty for posting this:)
Thanks for the kind words. Accidents in NA mtneering is a great book, I try not to push it on people too early (kinda freaks 'em out) but it's one of the more valuable resources available to us climbers. Good luck on your vertical conquests, if you ever have questions I'm happy to help, just PM me, I certainly don't know everything, but I'm more than will to share what I do know with any SP member.
Oh and "use your legs" (probably the most common phrase in rock climbing :)
Thanks for a good article. I was taught that the "mountains don't care"; that is that they accept no mistake and they don't care if one or a hundred people dies on their slopes in a given year. Thererfore safety is up to the climbing party. I am thankful for that lesson from my mentor and I know we all value safety..
Thanks Scotty for the well written and informative [for the beginner] article. I am certain that you are a good and patient teacher of things alpine, and I appreciate you willingness to write this primer. Even if some will argue with the particulars, your reasoning is solid and verifiable.
Cheers;
Tim
Where the hell was this article 5 months ago?! Well, I guess I'm now up to bouldering, but an awesome read. Guess its on to top roping next...Nice, very well written.
Congrats,
Mike
I just got into the rock climbing world a few months ago, and have battled through a few of the first steps. i just wanted to say it i enjoyed this informative encouraging article. Being babysat and having to put your pride away a lot kinda sucks but considering the grizzly alternatives i am more than happy being honest with myself.
Surely, this can be an effective and common good way to teach techniques for a beginner, newbie to climbing.
I do not know how things go on in US, but in Italy (and I think also in the other alpine countries), also trad climbing is a big issue for beginners. Let's say that what is explained in this article could be a good way to start sport climbing, and moreover it is a quite "tech" approach.
In my alpinism course for beginners by Italian Alpine Club (CAI),
an hammer and nails were mandatory, and the first routes I run, following the leader, were unbolted (exept for belays), to be protected routes. First things I learned were how to protect a route, how to belay, and so on, even before placing my hand on the rock. With this, I do not want to say that this way is better than the other.
Only, sometimes I find in trad routes people coming from sport climb who does not know how to protect the route, nor doesn't care about people following on the same route. I think that this behaviour is proper of the do-it-yourself sport climbers approaching for the first time to trad climbing, thinking that sport and trad are nearly the same thing, and threating other climbers with their behaviour.
So, on the whole a good article, but i would put much more emphasis on the fact that trad climbing is not only sport climbing on wild rocks....
G.
I agree that trad climbing is a much different skill than sport climbing. Generally I feel it's best to let a climber's mentors decide when it's best to introduce trad. As you say it's totally possible to learn to trad climb before you ever clip a bolt, but that's a more "hardcore" way of going about things. That approach is great for people who's minds are made up that climbing is for them, but may be less effective for people just wanting to see if they even like rock climbing.
My heart is in trad climbing, even though I climb a few grades harder on sport. To me it's all about the alpine, and everything else is just really fun training. When I teach I try to instill comfort and trust first (I find this easier to do on sport routes) then expose newbies to both, some automatically like trad better, some sport.
Everyone that rock climbs learned to do so in a unique way. To me trad technique is a subject for hands on instruction and advanced textbooks, I omitted a lot of info about trad in the hopes that climbing mentors will fill in the blanks, they're in much better position to do so.
In the USA this article is true for most people: top rope, lead inside, sport outside, trad outside. In other parts of the world, there are few/no "sport" routes, and if you are outside you are on gear from day 1.
In the UK, for example, you'll see a lot of blokes at the gym leading easy sport routes (5.5), but in the USA many of the lead climbs only begin at the harder grades (5.9).
I think having easy lead routes, and getting people to lead easy routes indoors before they get really good at the gymnastic moves, is a better way to transition to outdoor leading and trad.
Much leading and trad climbing is really about equipment technique, not gymnastic technique.
Nigel Lewis - Apr 18, 2007 6:21 pm - Hasn't voted
Not always."top-roping is mega-safe"
That depends on what youre running the top rope through. Any system is only as good as the weakest link in the chain, and if you run the top rope through a poorly constructed top anchor, it most surely is NOT mega safe.
N
lisae - Apr 18, 2007 8:02 pm - Voted 10/10
conclusion should be introduction"The truth is there's lots of ways to learn the art of rock climbing. This is one generic, but sure-fire, way to do so."
I think this statement should be included in your introduction. It seems to me that you are describing how you learned to climb or maybe things you wish you had done. But folks approach learning to climb in many different ways: ie, via gyms, from guides, from friends, and the approach you are describing is not the only one.
Scott Dusek - Apr 18, 2007 8:26 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: conclusion should be introductionGood idea,
Writing an article about all the ways to start climbing would leave people where they started... which is wondering where to start, so I chose to be more specific. I learned and refined this plan guiding. There's lot's of other ways though, nothing in the article ever says otherwise :)
Cheers,
-Scotty
lisae - Apr 18, 2007 8:44 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: conclusion should be introductionScotty, I didn't disagree with you. Your article specifically mentioned there are lots of other ways to learn. I just think it would be more effective if you address that in the beginning, stating this is the way you learned or the the best way to go about it, based on your experience.
Also, I think you should include some of your learning or guiding experiences.
t_man - Apr 19, 2007 10:15 am - Hasn't voted
Clearance & Usedyou say "GET NEW STUFF!!!" for Belay Device & Locking Carabiner
but not for a Harness,to quote Nigel Lewis "Any system is only as good as the weakest link in the chain"
CClaude - Apr 19, 2007 1:10 pm - Hasn't voted
what would be benificial for beginnersis an article on surviving your early years. I see the most probably time to have injuries or getting killed, is when you are just starting out (first couple years) because of what you don't know, and later on when you really push yourself- accepting some known risks. It would be nice if someone who is a certified climbing guide (I was going to become one but passed on it for reasons) or someone who is very experienced with absolute horrorshows (hint, hint, The Chief, Brutus of Wyde.....)
Also second what was said above, getting a new harness is more important than a new bealy device, due to weakening of soft goods with battery acid, chemical, UV exposure or just wear or age.
Also top roping you can EASILY get killed, especially a beginner. I've seen someone in another party die just a few feet away when their TR anchor failed (knot issue) and also someone get severely hurt when the anchor (a 1000lb boulder) moved. The knot issue is also what killed a woman Shelley who owned a climbing gym in PHX last year. She made a mistake when she tied two sets of webbing together and when she leaned back , she fell 100ft to her death at Paradise Forks.
Also its best that someone teach a beginner how to belay. You can mess this up pretty bad (had a friend in ICU for monthes since they were dropped by someone who messed up).
camerona91 - Apr 19, 2007 2:22 pm - Hasn't voted
Comments"be and "HMS" carabiner" is a typo I think. Should "and" be "an"?
wetsponge007 - Apr 20, 2007 3:11 pm - Voted 10/10
Good infoThis is a great article, and there are some great and highly important points in the comments. I just started gym climbing and fell in love with it. So far I have been trying to find books and figure out what I need and what to look for in gear and this article goes over the basics. The article also points out some very important things,” being honest" with yourself, instructors, and fellow climbers can stop a major problem or mistake from occurring. Another SP'er recommended a book to me, "Accidents in North American Mountaineering", I think of the books I own and this one is very important, learning from others mistakes and not making them yourself and learning the hard way, and it's also good so people getting into the sport understand what they're getting into.
Thanks Scotty for posting this:)
Scott Dusek - Apr 20, 2007 3:30 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Good infoThanks for the kind words. Accidents in NA mtneering is a great book, I try not to push it on people too early (kinda freaks 'em out) but it's one of the more valuable resources available to us climbers. Good luck on your vertical conquests, if you ever have questions I'm happy to help, just PM me, I certainly don't know everything, but I'm more than will to share what I do know with any SP member.
Oh and "use your legs" (probably the most common phrase in rock climbing :)
-Scotty
wildstar - Apr 21, 2007 12:08 am - Hasn't voted
The mountains don't careThanks for a good article. I was taught that the "mountains don't care"; that is that they accept no mistake and they don't care if one or a hundred people dies on their slopes in a given year. Thererfore safety is up to the climbing party. I am thankful for that lesson from my mentor and I know we all value safety..
T Sharp - Apr 21, 2007 1:03 am - Voted 10/10
Good ArticleThanks Scotty for the well written and informative [for the beginner] article. I am certain that you are a good and patient teacher of things alpine, and I appreciate you willingness to write this primer. Even if some will argue with the particulars, your reasoning is solid and verifiable.
Cheers;
Tim
Tie-Dye Mike - Apr 22, 2007 9:59 pm - Voted 10/10
Nice jobWhere the hell was this article 5 months ago?! Well, I guess I'm now up to bouldering, but an awesome read. Guess its on to top roping next...Nice, very well written.
Congrats,
Mike
Josh_Inked - Apr 23, 2007 1:44 am - Voted 10/10
good articleI just got into the rock climbing world a few months ago, and have battled through a few of the first steps. i just wanted to say it i enjoyed this informative encouraging article. Being babysat and having to put your pride away a lot kinda sucks but considering the grizzly alternatives i am more than happy being honest with myself.
conrats,
Josh
gogo - Apr 28, 2007 8:36 am - Voted 8/10
one of the possibilitiesSurely, this can be an effective and common good way to teach techniques for a beginner, newbie to climbing.
I do not know how things go on in US, but in Italy (and I think also in the other alpine countries), also trad climbing is a big issue for beginners. Let's say that what is explained in this article could be a good way to start sport climbing, and moreover it is a quite "tech" approach.
In my alpinism course for beginners by Italian Alpine Club (CAI),
an hammer and nails were mandatory, and the first routes I run, following the leader, were unbolted (exept for belays), to be protected routes. First things I learned were how to protect a route, how to belay, and so on, even before placing my hand on the rock. With this, I do not want to say that this way is better than the other.
Only, sometimes I find in trad routes people coming from sport climb who does not know how to protect the route, nor doesn't care about people following on the same route. I think that this behaviour is proper of the do-it-yourself sport climbers approaching for the first time to trad climbing, thinking that sport and trad are nearly the same thing, and threating other climbers with their behaviour.
So, on the whole a good article, but i would put much more emphasis on the fact that trad climbing is not only sport climbing on wild rocks....
G.
Scott Dusek - Apr 28, 2007 3:25 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: one of the possibilitiesI agree that trad climbing is a much different skill than sport climbing. Generally I feel it's best to let a climber's mentors decide when it's best to introduce trad. As you say it's totally possible to learn to trad climb before you ever clip a bolt, but that's a more "hardcore" way of going about things. That approach is great for people who's minds are made up that climbing is for them, but may be less effective for people just wanting to see if they even like rock climbing.
My heart is in trad climbing, even though I climb a few grades harder on sport. To me it's all about the alpine, and everything else is just really fun training. When I teach I try to instill comfort and trust first (I find this easier to do on sport routes) then expose newbies to both, some automatically like trad better, some sport.
Everyone that rock climbs learned to do so in a unique way. To me trad technique is a subject for hands on instruction and advanced textbooks, I omitted a lot of info about trad in the hopes that climbing mentors will fill in the blanks, they're in much better position to do so.
Good points,
-Scotty
pvnisher - Jun 15, 2013 9:19 pm - Hasn't voted
top-sport-tradIn the USA this article is true for most people: top rope, lead inside, sport outside, trad outside. In other parts of the world, there are few/no "sport" routes, and if you are outside you are on gear from day 1.
In the UK, for example, you'll see a lot of blokes at the gym leading easy sport routes (5.5), but in the USA many of the lead climbs only begin at the harder grades (5.9).
I think having easy lead routes, and getting people to lead easy routes indoors before they get really good at the gymnastic moves, is a better way to transition to outdoor leading and trad.
Much leading and trad climbing is really about equipment technique, not gymnastic technique.
liliacarrillo0822 - Jun 25, 2013 5:42 pm - Hasn't voted
Great articleGreat article thank you for posting!